The Mech Debate!

[Underwater Asylum]

Exactly Aegus. My mechs are bio-mechs primarily. The others are more walking weapon platforms. I do stock mechs, but primarily to sell.

[Central Facehuggeria]

Target profile: True. But I still say that if your enemy has very good targeting computers, your tank is still just as screwed as a mech is when they get detected. Mechs are admittedly easier to detect in the first place, but I've never tried to say that mechs are subtle.

Also, if an enemy is using tactical nukes or a similar weapon, a mech is just as screwed as a tank.

Stability: Okay. Point taken. But couldn't the individual weapons be stabilized? I mean, sure that adds to the complexity and cost, but mecha are already more expensive than tanks. What's another million dollars or so?

Ground pressure: Hmm...Perhaps some form of form-fitting gel footpad is necessary here. Something that can adapt to bumpy terrain, while still having decent surface area? My mechs just have really big feet, and enough mass to crush most things that get in their way, but that could be an intresting idea.

Weapons capacity: Okay. But there reaches a point when tanks get so big that it becomes counterproductive. (And if a tank's armor IS penetrated, the tank is most likely screwed.)

See farther/shoot farther: You don't design a tank for mobile artillery support. You design a mobile howitzer with a much bigger gun. Being able to fire at a large angle is not particularly valuable for tanks as they are at the moment. That's why you get the 155mm howitzers and similar artillery pieces.

Fewer crew: Yes, he does have to split his focus, but then again, it also means that he doesn't have to waste precious seconds calling out "Enemy tank detected at...grid...007 sir!" or anything similar. My mechs mount AIs to alleviate the pilot's workload. But then again, my mechs are bastardized products of sci-fi wankery and vague common sense.

Most sci-fi tanks do? Like...whom's? JJR says he has a few, My giant tanks have reactors, but those are the only ones that I'm aware of.

Specific instances: Is that a hint of sarcasm I detect in your typing?

Anyway, while those things are individually better at their specific jobs, it takes a signifigant logistical base to employ helicopters, tanks, powered armor, artillery, fighters, and space penii all at once.

Perhaps a mech's biggest (only?) advantage over a tank is psychological. Especially with regards to civilians. A tank is frightening, but a mech would be much more so, due simply to the way that the human mind works. While that advantage may be miniscule over professional soldiers, against conscripts, militia, and civilians the advantage will be undeniable.

Mechs need to rape physics and several engineering conventions to function as well as tanks, but they are signifigantly more entertaining, from a writing standpoint to me, so they'll always have a place in my forces. Even if I have to devise incredibly implausible physics raping technology to get them to work. As it stands now, I like to think that I've struck a balance between realistic, with the mechs being useless, and anime wankery with 8989988 cruise missiles held in a 16x4 leg pod in addition to magical ninja robots.

[Five Civilized Nations]

Can we stop with these pointless arguments?

[Jangle Jangle Ridge]

Very good points, Kanuckistan. Nice to see someone come up with the general reasons why a mech won't work as well as a tank. But my mecha bias still requires me to try an counter them.

Target profile: In the future, with targeting systems becoming more and more precise, a tank's small size isn't going to be as much of a factor imo.

Stability: What if a mech is equipped with energy weapons? Would a laser have recoil?

Ground pressure: Can't mecha just have really big feet? Like clown shoes!

They can mount more weapons: I see. So you're saying that a tank can mount 4 120mm cannons? Some mechs can. But they are then again much larger than most tanks, and designed to fufill different roles.

See farther/Shoot farther: I've never really been a fan of this one, so I'll just let it slide. (Although, I'd like to see a tank arch its fire if it's carrying an energy weapon or railgun.)

Can sidestep: I concur. Sidestepping doesn't work too well.

Urban Kombat: Power armor reigns supreme here. Mechs come in a distant second, with tanks coming in third.

Fewer crew: 1 crewman in the mech, ten in the maintence team.

Mechs have reactorz!: Tanks can, but really, how many tanks actually do?

Mechs can be better than tanks in specific instances, just like infantry can be better than tanks in specific instances. Each unit has its own uses.

>.<

Why does Kanuck always get congratulated! I came up with some of those reasons and they weren't called "Real"! I feel so betrayed!

Now, onto teh pointz0rs:

Target Profile: Yes, but it's a lot harder to ambush someone when you're the size of a small fucking building. Also, mechs can't really hide behind hills, because they're so tall. Lastly, just because targetting systems will get better doesn't mean the huge target will have any sort of advantage over the small one.

Stability: Not a laser pointer. But heavy lasers, like weapons-grade or industrial-grade lasers would. Also, limiting yourself to light laser weapons with little recoil is a major weakness. Simply place a reflector shield on the thing and laugh as the burst lasers bounce off. The lasers overheat, you take down the shield, and blow the mech to shit with your heavy gauss rifles.

Ground pressure: Yes. Clown shoes. Scare the 51st Childrens' Also, big feet slow your mech down by adding more weight to the feet. And they make delicious little targets.

They can mount more weapons: Actually, a tank possibly could mount four 120mm cannons. My Stoneman has a 300mm cannon and two 60mm chainguns. Of course, it's more like a rolling incarnation of armored death. To add more guns to a tank, you merely upsize it, heightening, lengthening, and widening the chassis. Than, strap on more guns. You can't really do that to a mech.

See farther/Shoot Farther: Well, nothing can. But a tank can arch weapons like missiles, mortars, conventional turrets, and signals to shoot the orbital Ion Cannon right neah.

Can sidestep: They need a mech to do a tapdance. A sideways tapdance, will special clicky clown shoes.

Urban Kombat: Power armor does rule here. Though I must dissagree with mechs coming second. I think tanks do. Especially speedy ones. You can hide a shitload of tanks in a city, but hiding a single mech can be a stretch. Especially fast hovertanks, that can strafe at the same speed it moves forward.

Fewer Crew: You need more space to fix a mech, too. Along with that special equipment stuff.

Mechs have reactorz!: A lot of mine do. Why? Like Kanuck said, don't compare present day tanks to uberfuture mechs. It's just kind of stupid.

[Skeelzania]

In repsonse to CF's comment about "most tanks have no reactors", I would just like to say my Super Battle Tanks (remember those white elephants?) have a micro-fusion reactor, about half as powerful as the one I use in my mobile suits (not a true mech, but still a big walking target). However, since the Gregors and Riesepanzers aren't fifty feet tall and don't weight several hundred tons (you know, MS are way to damn light if IIRC) they don't need such a powerful reactor.

The ST-24 Heulenkah, on the other hand, origninally used an internal combustion engine of all things, but now uses fusion cells (big batteries).

Now, to mechs and Urban Combat. Historically, tanks have been lousy in urban combat and I imagine mechs would be as well. Any advantage from the "I'm talle so I see farther and kill you sooner" is negated because you generally can't see thourgh a building with much clarity. Also, infantry with AT weapons (bazookas, satchel charges, potatoes in the tailpipe) will be able to sneak up on you much easier than if you were in, say, the plains of Kansas.

[Jangle Jangle Ridge]

Most sci-fi tanks do? Like...whom's? JJR says he has a few, My giant tanks have reactors, but those are the only ones that I'm aware of.

Not a few of my tanks mount reactors, but most of the heavy ones. Almost all the grav tanks. Also, boy, I have to say it, "Don't use that syntax with me, boy!"

Ehem. Typing joke. Ye-es...

[Central Facehuggeria]

>.<

Why does Kanuck always get congratulated! I came up with some of those reasons and they weren't called "Real"! I feel so betrayed!

Now, onto teh pointz0rs:

Target Profile: Yes, but it's a lot harder to ambush someone when you're the size of a small fucking building. Also, mechs can't really hide behind hills, because they're so tall. Lastly, just because targetting systems will get better doesn't mean the huge target will have any sort of advantage over the small one.

Stability: Not a laser pointer. But heavy lasers, like weapons-grade or industrial-grade lasers would. Also, limiting yourself to light laser weapons with little recoil is a major weakness. Simply place a reflector shield on the thing and laugh as the burst lasers bounce off. The lasers overheat, you take down the shield, and blow the mech to shit with your heavy gauss rifles.

Ground pressure: Yes. Clown shoes. Scare the 51st Childrens' Also, big feet slow your mech down by adding more weight to the feet. And they make delicious little targets.

They can mount more weapons: Actually, a tank possibly could mount four 120mm cannons. My Stoneman has a 300mm cannon and two 60mm chainguns. Of course, it's more like a rolling incarnation of armored death. To add more guns to a tank, you merely upsize it, heightening, lengthening, and widening the chassis. Than, strap on more guns. You can't really do that to a mech.

See farther/Shoot Farther: Well, nothing can. But a tank can arch weapons like missiles, mortars, conventional turrets, and signals to shoot the orbital Ion Cannon right neah.

Can sidestep: They need a mech to do a tapdance. A sideways tapdance, will special clicky clown shoes.

Urban Kombat: Power armor does rule here. Though I must dissagree with mechs coming second. I think tanks do. Especially speedy ones. You can hide a shitload of tanks in a city, but hiding a single mech can be a stretch. Especially fast hovertanks, that can strafe at the same speed it moves forward.

Fewer Crew: You need more space to fix a mech, too. Along with that special equipment stuff.

Mechs have reactorz!: A lot of mine do. Why? Like Kanuck said, don't compare present day tanks to uberfuture mechs. It's just kind of stupid.

Target profile: My point is that if targeting technology is good enough, it won't matter if you're a tank or mech. Sure the mech is a bigger target, with sufficiently precise targeting devices, both of them are going down equally hard.

Stability: Err...Did you just say that lasers have recoil!? Lasers shoot a virtually massless beam of photons at a particular target. Recoil isn't even noticable, as far as I know. (Kanuckistan please correct me if I'm wrong! ) If lasers are defeated by reflective shields, than high yield plasma weapons, particle beams, or just about any other form of decent energy weapon will suffice.

Ground pressure: I'd love to see you target the feet. Legs are much better targets. In addition, there is no rule saying that the feet have to weigh much. Just that they have to be a certain size.

Weapons: Show me how a tank can mount four 120mm cannons without being incredibly massive.

Also, the more massive a tank gets, the more poorly it will fare in any sort of situation where it has to turn. This is only made worse in a city or similarly cluttered area. Unless you have a flexible tank that can move around like a catepillar.

See further/shoot further: A mech can mount a mortar just as easily as a tank. Same situation with missiles. Moreover, tank cannons cannot be used as pocket field artillery pieces unless you purposefully design them that way, making your "OMG cheap and simple tankzors!!" a bit more complicated and costly. There is a reason for why the military uses tanks against for line of sight engagements and 155mm self propelled guns for artillery barrages.

Can sidestep: I've already said that sidestepping wouldn't really work. Although if you give me enough time and motivation, I could probably think of a psuedo realistic way of making it work.

Urban Kombat: I disagree. Sidestepping (Sidehovering?) in a city is not very useful. The tank or mech doesn't really have many places to go without crashing into a building. In addition, speed isn't as useful as firepower in urban warfare unless you're just trying to get through the city to the other side. The close combat aspect of urban combat seems to lend itself more towards mechs (who, in addition to shooting tanks with numerous energy weapons in the tanks' weak top armor can now feasably get within range to stomp on the unruly vehicle.)

One final thing with regards to urban combat: Mechs can just pop their guns around a corner and shoot. Tanks can't do that without making the turret vulnerable.

Fewer crew: What was that I said about maintence? Yes. I believe is was that mechs required far more maintence than an equivelent tank. Mechs also require more space to repair, good point. But I still say that if a nation has the money and personell/tech to make a mech, more power to them.

Mechs with reactors: Did I or did I not just say that some of your tanks have large reactors? I believe I did.

At any rate, what I'm saying is that even amongst future tech circles, most tanks don't have mecha scale reactors. Of course, if you could point a few, more than the three examples I mentioned, I may be more apt to conceed this. But for the moment, only large and special purpose heavy tanks seem to commonly carry mecha scale reactors.

[Arizona Nova]

Dang! My little comment sparked quite the debate! Anyways...

One important consideration to the tank: ammo. If you're packing ginormous 4x120mm cannonz of d00m on your ginormous tank, those four cannons with those huge shells need a lot of space to store a respectable amount of ammunition. The more space it needs to store ammunition, the bigger it gets, the more armor it needs, and the slower it becomes. Whereas, cut to the mech using energy weapons - it might need extensive heat sinks, of course, but as long as the reactor is working it can still shoot. The bigger the main cannon gets, and the less the tank is a tank and it is all the more a mobile artillery piece, which means that it'll get pwned from close range.
Piloting a mech, with the right systems and implants and whatnot, I think would be like piloting a modern jet fighter. Minor AI would control the tedium while the pilot would concentrate on piloting and on blowing stuff up. Y'all need to go and buy a copy of Mechwarrior, jeez.

[Mekanta]

Meh, I found a happy medium.

My Akujin will ass rape Tanks, Aircraft, and Mechs alike.


And one "Get out of Tentacle Rape Free" card to Siesatia for mentioning Earth 2150. I was going to steal some of those units for Underpact Mekanta. ^_^

[Central Facehuggeria]

Meh, I found a happy medium.

My Akujin will ass rape Tanks, Aircraft, and Mechs alike.


And one "Get out of Tentacle Rape Free" card to Siesatia for mentioning Earth 2150. I was going to steal some of those units for Underpact Mekanta. ^_^

Like the jaguar or panther? Or are you talking about the lil mechs like the spider and tiger?

(BTW, I still think the earth 2140 units look better than the E2150 units. But the earth 2160 units look even better! I can't wait until that game is released.)