Shivans are back.

[Trailers]

I'll participate, because flooding Sithy's RPs gives me sick amusement.

[Godular]

I have come to the conclusion that finishing the Hearts of Iron 2 AAR I started with Poland, beating the Nazi invasion, trying to form a Polish Empire and then typing the "alien invasion" cheat code for the LULZ might be more fun than this RP.

*edit

my CURRENT nation would prolly be a bit of a kick in the nuts for the Shivans.

I'd say that LOL black holes + Death Gamma Ray at light minutes + c-frac guns + uber long range c-frac missile weaponry, although not as wanked as Kythons and more plausible despite being, admittedly, a techwank, would lead to the same result, thus there is no point in bringing Solar Communes.

The Godulans aren't my current nation anymore.

[Sskiss]

I'd say that LOL black holes + Death Gamma Ray at light minutes + c-frac guns + uber long range c-frac missile weaponry, although not as wanked as Kythons and more plausible despite being, admittedly, a techwank, would lead to the same result, thus there is no point in bringing Solar Communes.

Not possible. Any opponent with equivellent drive tech etc... would simply have plenty of time to evade such weapons. For example, my energy and kenetic weapons possess a maximum range of three light seconds. Four or five at most.

Specially after I develop Solarian FTLi... then any Space Opera-ish force, unless gifted with uberLOLwankonium shields able of deflecting everything and thus deserving of IGNORE cannon, would stand no chance.

Maybe, but I always thought FTLi a sort of RP killer. I mean, if it actually works, who the hell is going to bother to invade or otherwise attack you? Result, lost RP oppertunities. This is mainly my OOC reason never to have used it in the first place.

Of course, I hope that the ESUS version of the Shivans isn't limited to visual range engagements like early 20th century battleships and has some fucking nasty weapons able of vaporizing things light hours away.

Really? In that case, within the context of NS or this forum, weaponry with ranges like light hours (even light minutes ((unless its a missile)) is techwank, or shall I say, wanking period! Pure and simple!

[Solar Communes]

Really? In that case, within the context of NS or this forum, weaponry with ranges like light hours (even light minutes ((unless its a missile)) is techwank, or shall I say, wanking period! Pure and simple!

Space Opera mentality period! Pure and simple!

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#laser

Bottom line is an x-ray laser is technologically very challenging, but if you manage to make one you have an Unstoppable Death Ray of Stupendous Range.

Luke Campbell:

Let's take a 10 MW ERC pumped FEL at just above the lead K-edge. This particular wavelength is used because lead is pretty much the heaviest non-radioactive element you can get, and at just above the highest core level absorption for a material you can get total external reflection at grazing angles - so no absorption or heating of a lead grazing incidence mirror. We will use a 1 meter diameter mirror. The Pb K-edge x-ray transition radiates at 1.4E-11 m. This gives us a divergence angle of 1.4E-11 radians. At 1 light second, we get a spot size of 5 mm, and an intensity of 5E11 W/m2.

Looking at the NIST table of x-ray attenuation coefficients, and noting that 1.4E-11 m is a 88 keV photon, we find an attenuation coefficient of about 0.5 cm2/g for iron (we'll use this for steel), 0.15 cm2/g for graphite (we'll use this for high tech carbon materials) and 0.18 cm2/g for borosilicate glass (a very rough approximation for ceramics). Since graphite has a density of 1.7 g/cm3, we get a 1/e falloff distance (attenuation length) of 4 cm. Iron, with a density of 7.9 g/cm3, has an attenuation length of 0.25 cm. Glass, density 2.2 g/cm3, has an attenuation length of 2.5 cm.

At 1 light second, therefore, the beam is depositing 2E12 W/cm3 in iron at the surface and 7E11 W/cm3 at 0.25 cm depth; 1.2E11 W/cm3 in graphite at the surface and 5E10 W/cm3 at 4 cm depth; and 2E11 W/cm3 in glass at the surface and 7E10 W/cm3 at 2.5 cm depth. Using 6E4 J/cm3 to vaporize iron initially at 300 K, we find that iron flashes to vapor within a microsecond to a depth of 0.9 cm. The glass, assumed to take 4.5E4 J/cm3 to vaporize (roughly appropriate for quartz) will flash to vapor within a microsecond to a depth of 4 cm within a microsecond. Graphite, at 1E5 J/cm3 for vaporization, will flash to vapor to a depth of 0.7 cm within a microsecond (the laser performs better if we let it dwell on graphite for a bit longer, we get a vaporization depth of 10 cm after ten microseconds).

Net conclusion - ravening death beam at one light second.

Now lets look at one light minute. The beam is now 30 cm across. This is much deeper than the attenuation length in all cases, so we will just find the radiant intensity and the equilibrium black body temperature of that intensity. We have an area of 7E-2 m2, and an intensity of 1.4E8 W/m2. You need to reach 7000 K before the irradiated surface is radiating as much energy away as heat as it is receiving as coherent x-rays. The boiling point of iron is 3023 K, the boiling point of quartz is 2503 K, and the sublimation temperature of graphite is 3640 K. All of these will be vaporized long before they stop gaining heat. At this range, the iron is subject to 5.6E8 W/cm3 at the surface, the graphite to 3.3E7 W/cm3 at the surface, and the glass to 5.6E7 W/cm3 at the surface. Using the above values for energy of vaporization, we get about 0.1 milliseconds before the iron starts to vaporize, 0.8 milliseconds before the glass starts to vaporize, and 3 milliseconds before the graphite begins to vaporize (because of its long attenuation length, once it begins to sublimate, graphite sublimates rapidly to a deep depth, while you essentially have to remove the iron layer by layer).

Net conclusion - still a ravening death beam at one light minute.

What about at one light hour? The beam is 18 meters across. The equilibrium black body temperature is 900 K. This is well below the melting point of most structural materials. Ten megawatts, however, is a lot of ionizing radiation. Any unhardened vehicle will be radiation killed at these ranges.

However, he goes on to note that in order to boost electrons to the velocities required for an X-ray free electron laser, you will need an acceleration ring approximately one kilometer in diameter. So this X-ray laser would only be suitable for exceedingly huge warships, orbital fortresses, and Death Stars.

Of course, I only have 5 at best spaceships with this sort of weaponry, and they rely on avoiding getting hit through thrust/advanced active protection systems and damage control rather than on shields.

[Celestial Seibutsu]

I'd say that LOL black holes + Death Gamma Ray at light minutes + c-frac guns + uber long range c-frac missile weaponry, although not as wanked as Kythons and more plausible despite being, admittedly, a techwank, would lead to the same result, thus there is no point in bringing Solar Communes.

Not possible. Any opponent with equivellent drive tech etc... would simply have plenty of time to evade such weapons. For example, my energy and kenetic weapons possess a maximum range of three light seconds. Four or five at most.

Specially after I develop Solarian FTLi... then any Space Opera-ish force, unless gifted with uberLOLwankonium shields able of deflecting everything and thus deserving of IGNORE cannon, would stand no chance.

Maybe, but I always thought FTLi a sort of RP killer. I mean, if it actually works, who the hell is going to bother to invade or otherwise attack you? Result, lost RP oppertunities. This is mainly my OOC reason never to have used it in the first place.

Of course, I hope that the ESUS version of the Shivans isn't limited to visual range engagements like early 20th century battleships and has some fucking nasty weapons able of vaporizing things light hours away.

Really? In that case, within the context of NS or this forum, weaponry with ranges like light hours (even light minutes ((unless its a missile)) is techwank, or shall I say, wanking period! Pure and simple!

As I recall, SC lacks all forms of FTL in the first place, so I believe he's allowed a small margin of wank.

[Solar Communes]

Well, there is the Warp, but I will RP the % that becomes lost and turned into unwilling soldiers for Khorne and Tzeentch during massive deployments, and they will usually only use it once to reach at a strategically viable "staging ground", from where all other moves will be STL.

Like I mentioned once, the difference between STL and FTL for Solar Communes is the difference between walking on foot and slapping a homemade rocket on your back.

*Edit: as for FTLi, people who go through the path of creating their own space forces concept rather than copying -insert franchise here- and people who don't fap for 100000g acceleration wankonium STL drives or to George Lucas bull would not bother the limitations when trying to invade Solar Communes home system. As for the people who would, specially Star Wars grade, I wouldn't be able to take their LOLTechs seriously should they try to invade SC and to claim a bunch of X-wings and Imperial Destroyers engines don't break Newton Laws and causality, which if tolerated for sake of plot would create a massive universe canon hole and inconsistency.

Besides, a war measured in centuries is more epic than one measured in weeks. Haldeman's Forever War used such premise very well.

[Central Facehuggeria]

Space Opera mentality period! Pure and simple!

Not necessarily. A 10 meter wide death ray is not all that helpful at a range of light minutes, since the enemy ship has a whole minute to get out of the way on a random vector. If they can accelerate at even one gee, the chances of them evading your death ray are quite high. Since they'll be undertaking random maneuvers if at all possible.

Haldeman's Forever War used such premise very well.

No it didn't. The Forever War sucked hardcore gerbil testicles. :/

[Sskiss]

Really? In that case, within the context of NS or this forum, weaponry with ranges like light hours (even light minutes ((unless its a missile)) is techwank, or shall I say, wanking period! Pure and simple!

Space Opera mentality period! Pure and simple!

http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3x.html#laser

Bottom line is an x-ray laser is technologically very challenging, but if you manage to make one you have an Unstoppable Death Ray of Stupendous Range.

Luke Campbell:

Let's take a 10 MW ERC pumped FEL at just above the lead K-edge. This particular wavelength is used because lead is pretty much the heaviest non-radioactive element you can get, and at just above the highest core level absorption for a material you can get total external reflection at grazing angles - so no absorption or heating of a lead grazing incidence mirror. We will use a 1 meter diameter mirror. The Pb K-edge x-ray transition radiates at 1.4E-11 m. This gives us a divergence angle of 1.4E-11 radians. At 1 light second, we get a spot size of 5 mm, and an intensity of 5E11 W/m2.

Looking at the NIST table of x-ray attenuation coefficients, and noting that 1.4E-11 m is a 88 keV photon, we find an attenuation coefficient of about 0.5 cm2/g for iron (we'll use this for steel), 0.15 cm2/g for graphite (we'll use this for high tech carbon materials) and 0.18 cm2/g for borosilicate glass (a very rough approximation for ceramics). Since graphite has a density of 1.7 g/cm3, we get a 1/e falloff distance (attenuation length) of 4 cm. Iron, with a density of 7.9 g/cm3, has an attenuation length of 0.25 cm. Glass, density 2.2 g/cm3, has an attenuation length of 2.5 cm.

At 1 light second, therefore, the beam is depositing 2E12 W/cm3 in iron at the surface and 7E11 W/cm3 at 0.25 cm depth; 1.2E11 W/cm3 in graphite at the surface and 5E10 W/cm3 at 4 cm depth; and 2E11 W/cm3 in glass at the surface and 7E10 W/cm3 at 2.5 cm depth. Using 6E4 J/cm3 to vaporize iron initially at 300 K, we find that iron flashes to vapor within a microsecond to a depth of 0.9 cm. The glass, assumed to take 4.5E4 J/cm3 to vaporize (roughly appropriate for quartz) will flash to vapor within a microsecond to a depth of 4 cm within a microsecond. Graphite, at 1E5 J/cm3 for vaporization, will flash to vapor to a depth of 0.7 cm within a microsecond (the laser performs better if we let it dwell on graphite for a bit longer, we get a vaporization depth of 10 cm after ten microseconds).

Net conclusion - ravening death beam at one light second.

Now lets look at one light minute. The beam is now 30 cm across. This is much deeper than the attenuation length in all cases, so we will just find the radiant intensity and the equilibrium black body temperature of that intensity. We have an area of 7E-2 m2, and an intensity of 1.4E8 W/m2. You need to reach 7000 K before the irradiated surface is radiating as much energy away as heat as it is receiving as coherent x-rays. The boiling point of iron is 3023 K, the boiling point of quartz is 2503 K, and the sublimation temperature of graphite is 3640 K. All of these will be vaporized long before they stop gaining heat. At this range, the iron is subject to 5.6E8 W/cm3 at the surface, the graphite to 3.3E7 W/cm3 at the surface, and the glass to 5.6E7 W/cm3 at the surface. Using the above values for energy of vaporization, we get about 0.1 milliseconds before the iron starts to vaporize, 0.8 milliseconds before the glass starts to vaporize, and 3 milliseconds before the graphite begins to vaporize (because of its long attenuation length, once it begins to sublimate, graphite sublimates rapidly to a deep depth, while you essentially have to remove the iron layer by layer).

Net conclusion - still a ravening death beam at one light minute.

What about at one light hour? The beam is 18 meters across. The equilibrium black body temperature is 900 K. This is well below the melting point of most structural materials. Ten megawatts, however, is a lot of ionizing radiation. Any unhardened vehicle will be radiation killed at these ranges.

However, he goes on to note that in order to boost electrons to the velocities required for an X-ray free electron laser, you will need an acceleration ring approximately one kilometer in diameter. So this X-ray laser would only be suitable for exceedingly huge warships, orbital fortresses, and Death Stars.

Of course, I only have 5 at best spaceships with this sort of weaponry, and they rely on avoiding getting hit through thrust/advanced active protection systems and damage control rather than on shields.

Long story short; Your x-ray laser travels at the speed of light (as does all forms of radiation), but in an actually space battle, your targets are moving (and manuevering) at high speeds. Your weapon will never hit a fast and manueverable enemy at light minutes away (impossible) - let alone light hours! That is, unless your target manuevers like a tube full of water....

[Metallinauts]

[Solar Communes]

Yes, Effective Range != Maximum Range

Now, as for Shivans, I can play Hearts of Iron 2 with Poland at any time I have available anyway, although I nonetheless canceled Polish Worlds FT Intro because it's more fun to do it as a HoI2 AAR using that mentioned cheat.

Too bad Shivans don't have ground forces to challenge the Polish Cavalry