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Arizona Nova
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Re: Question

Post by Arizona Nova »

Thrashia wrote:I think we'll just agree to disagree then. My basis for rp-legitimacy in the claiming of territory is simply the unwritten rule that I and the rest of the GE and most members of the SWG use and prefer. In no way is it meant to be a standard for all of NS. I implied this rule as a necessity for debunking the mindset map claims, and making it clear that we of the GE do not recognize it and its claims as legitimate; and to make it clear that, for it to continue being a viable map, that it should be made clear that it is a separate SWG and not the "true" one which we presently reside in.
This is not "the mindset's map" like Bryn Shander's map is "Bryn Shander's map;" this is a map engine, crafted by the Mindset, which has been built by the community of NationStates. That's who you're fighting here. You need to recognize this distinction.

As well, claiming to not make the rest of NS abide by your rules, but then demanding that they do so if they want to roleplay in the SWG and/or use the map, is a massive, and most of all, unworkable disconnect.

As for being viable, attracting over two-hundred users strikes me as being very viable; being endorsed by the Triumvirate of Yut; very viable.
Thrashia wrote:
Arizona Nova wrote:There are ways to get what you want - recognition of the crafted history of the NS Galactic Empire - aside from demanding a pointless disclaimer before the nation even begins roleplaying.
We already have recognition as you yourself proved and therefore I can attest to the statement that my or my alliance's ego is not at stake here. And there is always a point in trying to gain an understanding of a fellow player's background and history.
Yes, we implicitly recognize your history; we do not recognize your demand that we explicitly recognize your history before making a claim.
[center]Wit ye well, that when no good men remain to stand against those who choose evil, what will remain to restrain them from unleashing their dark designs?[/center]
~Anikar


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Thrashia
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Re: Question

Post by Thrashia »

Arizona Nova wrote:
As well, claiming to not make the rest of NS abide by your rules, but then demanding that they do so if they want to roleplay in the SWG and/or use the map, is a massive, and most of all, unworkable disconnect.

As for being viable, attracting over two-hundred users strikes me as being very viable; being endorsed by the Triumvirate of Yut; very viable.
Don't be a total ass. It's colloquially known as "the mindset map." You're starting to argue semantics instead of my points. And I do not mean that the MWG when I say that the SWG map is the part that is not viable.

I really do not understanding how you cannot comprehend my point. I'm not against the "rest of NS." I am not declaring a set of rules for the community at large to follow in all areas. It's no great challenge and simply a matter of courtesy that I request that nations have a background to their claims when they are claiming to be in the SWG. If a nation wants to be there and ignore the GE and other's claims, then that's on them. No skin off our nose. They can have fun. Excepting that they shouldn't expect us to take them seriously and most likely expect an ignore.

This is no way bars new players from entering into the SWG. A simple TG or message of some kind asking "hey, I saw that you are the regional power in this location. Do you mind if I have my nation come in and colonize/conquer/be discovered on such-and-such planet?" To me that speaks well for a new player when they make those steps. It means that they are a fair person and are willing to work with people and most importantly, to learn.

More than anything I would wish for would be a working relationship between the entire community and thereby have a map such as we have here, to be true to the way that things are on NS. However because part of the mindset map is not accurate to the current existence of relations and nations on NS, then the GE cannot recognize it (the SWG part) as legitimate.
"You served too long under Lord Vader, Captain. I have no qualms about accepting a useful idea merely because it wasn't my own. My position and ego are not at stake here."
-Grand Admiral Thrawn
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Arizona Nova
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Re: Question

Post by Arizona Nova »

Thrashia wrote: I really do not understanding how you cannot comprehend my point. I'm not against the "rest of NS." I am not declaring a set of rules for the community at large to follow in all areas. It's no great challenge and simply a matter of courtesy that I request that nations have a background to their claims when they are claiming to be in the SWG. If a nation wants to be there and ignore the GE and other's claims, then that's on them. No skin off our nose. They can have fun. Excepting that they shouldn't expect us to take them seriously and most likely expect an ignore.

This is no way bars new players from entering into the SWG. A simple TG or message of some kind asking "hey, I saw that you are the regional power in this location. Do you mind if I have my nation come in and colonize/conquer/be discovered on such-and-such planet?" To me that speaks well for a new player when they make those steps. It means that they are a fair person and are willing to work with people and most importantly, to learn.
It's still unworkable. You're assuming that your alliance is totally visible, at all times and to all people, as "the power" in the NS-SWG. With us, that is the case; we're "oldfags" as it were, we know the scene. This is not the case with some of the newer players who have or will claim territory in the SWG. Demanding they incorporate that history upfront is simply unreasonable when most of them are probably not even aware it exists, and will lead to the marginalization of your alliance from the player base. I don't know why you won't understand or at least consider that possibility.

Obviously you can't be asked to tolerate the antics of someone writing NS-based fan fiction using the canon elements you have already laid claim to such as Coruscant, or Darth Vader, but demanding any new player who fancies starting a Wookiee nation but who is otherwise unfamiliar with your history, to pre-conform before getting started at all, is unreasonable and unworkable. There is room for win-win compromise if you'd just look.
Thrashia wrote:More than anything I would wish for would be a working relationship between the entire community and thereby have a map such as we have here, to be true to the way that things are on NS. However because part of the mindset map is not accurate to the current existence of relations and nations on NS, then the GE cannot recognize it (the SWG part) as legitimate.
This is still circular reasoning; opting out, making the map not accurately reflect how things are, and on that basis, justifying opting out. I have a sneaking suspicion that you have rejected this tool simply because you didn't think it up and cannot exercise total control over it.

Let me frame this in a two-scenario form, so you'll get what I mean. Joe Smith, a fan of Star Wars and nation-building games, has started a new nation, The Wookiee Empire. He has just read the FAQ on roleplay and is excited to join. As a new player, he has no foreknowledge that there is an NS Galactic Empire, but pushes forward with his idea anyway, claiming Kashyyyk as his homeworld. He begins RPing and fleshing out his nation, and makes a claim on the "Mindset Map." He is soon telegrammed, however, by a member of the GE, who warns him that his claim is unrecognized by that alliance as it has no RP precedent. To Joe, this basically means that this group of strangers who he has never met or interacted with ignore his claim and what little history he has assembled, because he didn't check in with them first. Affronted, like any reasonable, spineful person would be, Joe Smith promptly deletes the telegram and ignores the sender, and goes on his merry way, building a history and making alliances as he will. The GE loses by scaring off a potential member; Joe loses by not being becoming a part of an established community, possibly becoming embittered against alliances in the process (like so many players currently are).

What would my solution be? Really quite simple, and I am surprised that enterprising, Machiavellian types like yourself couldn't imagine it. You simply observe Joe as he goes about, making claims, and wait until he gets in a war with someone else. The other party looks unreasonable and aggressive, so you approach Joe with an offer of help. You inform Joe that your alliance is an old, powerful SW alliance on NationStates, and that if he joins you (and in that joining is obviously requisite some of the demands you make), you will help him defeat his enemy. You do so, his enemy ragequits at the sight of stormtrooper and sith legions, and Joe is in the debt and possibly even fond of your alliance. You now take the time to work out with him a synthesized history that accomdates both parties. Both of you win; you gain a member, Joe gains a community.

The difference between the two is that the second requires slightly more work, and doesn't leave you looking elitist.
[center]Wit ye well, that when no good men remain to stand against those who choose evil, what will remain to restrain them from unleashing their dark designs?[/center]
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Thrashia
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Re: Question

Post by Thrashia »

Dude, it's as simple as the fact that we just don't accept the SWG-mindset map as legit. I could care less if you made or Santa Claus. I don't care. I wouldn't want to have to maintain it, that would be a pain in the ass that I can only tip my hat to when I think of Bryn and Mindset.

All I am saying is that people need to have a bit of background to their claims. Nothing more, nothing less. No ulterior motives. No sycophantic desire for absolute hegemony. No worries or god damn care if someone wants to make a "wookie nation" or name their planet Coruscant. And no god damn mother fucking scaring off of newbs just because they didn't tickle my dick/ego first. You are not comprehending a word I've said. And as far as I am concerned, to hell with it, since ultimately I don't give a good god damn about it. That's the point that your obtuse idiocy has brought me to. Good day to you sir.
"You served too long under Lord Vader, Captain. I have no qualms about accepting a useful idea merely because it wasn't my own. My position and ego are not at stake here."
-Grand Admiral Thrawn
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Arizona Nova
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Re: Question

Post by Arizona Nova »

Thrashia wrote:Dude, it's as simple as the fact that we just don't accept the SWG-mindset map as legit. I could care less if you made or Santa Claus. I don't care. I wouldn't want to have to maintain it, that would be a pain in the ass that I can only tip my hat to when I think of Bryn and Mindset.

All I am saying is that people need to have a bit of background to their claims. Nothing more, nothing less. No ulterior motives. No sycophantic desire for absolute hegemony. No worries or god damn care if someone wants to make a "wookie nation" or name their planet Coruscant. And no god damn mother fucking scaring off of newbs just because they didn't tickle my dick/ego first. You are not comprehending a word I've said. And as far as I am concerned, to hell with it, since ultimately I don't give a good god damn about it. That's the point that your obtuse idiocy has brought me to. Good day to you sir.
I have been reasonable as you since day one. If standing on principle - namely, the principle that defines the game, freeform RP - is obtuse idiocy, then call me an idiot. I never accused you of having ulterior motives, I'm simply explaining that your policy is short-sighted, somewhat egotistical, and ultimately doomed to failure in a freeform environment. Your boiling over and unwillingness to even consider my warning and the ramifications of your policy - when the proof of my claim is what has drove you here to complain in the first place! - is proof enough of your closed-mindedness.
[center]Wit ye well, that when no good men remain to stand against those who choose evil, what will remain to restrain them from unleashing their dark designs?[/center]
~Anikar


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Solar Communes
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Re: Question

Post by Solar Communes »

LOL at serious business over a fictional Star Wars Galaxy copypasta-ed and raped with non-canon stuff.

If you want exclusivity, there are sites specifically made for freeform RPing and fanfic-writing related to Star Wars. Really, why bother at all with such a simulacrum of a fictional universe that you aren't even obliged to get yourself involved with?

PS: I have a complaint too: there is no Galaxy built as a metaphor for WW2 Europe in Mindset's Map. Nevermind though, I can fix it myself with enough puppets for French, Poles, Nazis and Finns IN SPACE! Hey, maybe I'll RP Polish Worlds claiming a part of SW Galaxy. Considering the fascistic undertones of the GE, they'd probably mistake Darth Vader for Hitler being resurrected or something.... ehm, nevermind that, I was just having random thoughts.
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The Mindset
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Re: Question

Post by The Mindset »

I think this question has been dealt with sufficiently thoroughly, no?
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