The Image Thread: Now baby Cthulu doesn't have to cry.

[Allanea]

In regards to your last point, why would they decline so much? Why would such a powerful nation keep such a weak and ineffective military when they have a need for it and have access to all the necessary resources?

1. "Resources" are not enough for a good military.

2. The UN is not uniform at its advances. It's just been formed of a variety of Earth nations, some of which are utter shitholes at the time the novel takes place.

[Zerstorendar]

Obviously resources aren't everything. But having them is a whole lot better than not having them, it's certainly a massive advantage. As for the non uniform advances, why does that mean the highly effective armies of Earth superpowers would suddenly become shit, even previously excellent soldiers suddenly becoming what sounds like incompetent and unprofessional failures?

[Allanea]

Bureaucracy, corruption, political correctness have fucked up military training and organization. A lot of the actually people have quit, and politically-motivated no-goods have been put in command.

[Zerstorendar]

Would they not also be technologically superior and able to make up for poor training somewhat with a much larger and superior navy, better equipped and supplied army and all that? It makes little sense for them to be completely ineffective in every way just because there's a lot of red tape

[Arenumberg]

You sir, clearly need more bureacracy.

[Balrogga]

What does this discussion have to do with this Thread? I see no images and the title of this Thread clearly states "The Image Thread: Now baby Cthulu doesn't have to cry."

I think we are a little off topic.



To get us back on topic I will post this picture:

[Solar Communes]

What does this discussion have to do with this Thread? I see no images and the title of this Thread clearly states "The Image Thread: Now baby Cthulu doesn't have to cry."

I think we are a little off topic.



To get us back on topic I will post this picture:
-snip-

Isn't this what happens to Mekantans that eat that thing called "Innocent Blood Flower"?

[Central Facehuggeria]

Yes.

Okay. I haven't read that one. However, didn't Freehold secede from the UN ~50 years ago as of Freehold? So did they break away from the previous non-governmental UN, or the ultrafail liberal carciature UN?

You may disagree that such a thing occurs IRL, but such a thing is a legitimate novel setting.

Except that it makes no sense? We're talking about a government that has such a hardon for managing its people that they implant tracking chips in peoples' head. Even assuming they come down on honest people more than criminals (which makes no sense given the tracking chips - they'd know who's a criminal and who isn't), crime of any sort shouldn't be high at all. Unless their police are intentionally not doing their jobs. But that's just idiocy and goes to show "Eeevil Liberals!" carciatures rather than a well considered society.

Seriously. If the book was meant to be some sort of tyrannical anarchy, Williamson shouldn't have had the UN put tracking chips in people's heads.

Yes, that's actually been MOST of the damage, and focused on industrial assets.

It was? I was under the impression from The Weapon that the suicide ships were targeted primarily on cities rather than Earth's enormous orbital infrastructure.

The whole point of the Operative bit was to distract Earth's population long enough for that to happen.

By causing terror rather than, say, destroying the assets which could actually stop them? (IE the UN fleet.)

They don't infiltrate Caledonia.

It's a matter of technicality. They're invited in and then slip off in the middle of the night to plant nuclear weapons caches in their allies soil. That part, at the least, requires infiltration. Or blind trust on the part of their allies.

Except on Mtali. And when they do anti-terrorist ops on Grainne and on Caledonia.

Ah. True.

I will inform all the Latin American outfits still using machetes immediately.

Ah. Yes, I forgot about that. Mentally revise my statement to read "a bayonet or an axe. Or, if you're in the middle of a jungle, a machete."

They've been trained with national armies before they united into the UN armed forces. The decline after that was swift.

See, this is what I mean. It's like the instant someone says "UN army!" in the Freeholdverse, IQs start going down.

[Allanea]

Okay. I haven't read that one. However, didn't Freehold secede from the UN ~50 years ago as of Freehold? So did they break away from the previous non-governmental UN, or the ultrafail liberal carciature UN?

The UN before it got a common military.

It was? I was under the impression from The Weapon that the suicide ships were targeted primarily on cities rather than Earth's enormous orbital infrastructure.

The suicide ships are focused on the industrial centers. The Operatives do depopulation strikes.

Ah. True.

So basically, they're not infiltration specialists. Thank you for conceding my point.

By causing terror rather than, say, destroying the assets which could actually stop them?

By causing massive civil unrest and destabilizing the very fabric of Earth civilization.

which makes no sense given the tracking chips - they'd know who's a criminal and who isn't)

From the POV of people who come up with such policies, a random person who just breaks a rule is just as bad as a gangsta – and beside, a fictional society doesn't have to be 100% thought-out, it just has to be 'feasible'. Some people think that police and authorities actually BENEFIT from a high crime rate so they could use it to scare the populace. I am not sure I agree, but apparently MZW does.

Mentally revise my statement to read "a bayonet or an axe. Or, if you're in the middle of a jungle, a machete."

The swords are not compulsory for everyday carry. And at any rate, the machete is in itself a sword.

I take it you concede my points regarding the fail of UN militaries, and regarding the Operatives not being, in fact, infiltration specialists.

[Central Facehuggeria]

The UN before it got a common military.

Okay.

The suicide ships are focused on the industrial centers. The Operatives do depopulation strikes.

Industrial centers like what? There's never any mention of hitting the important industrial centers.

Edit: By that I mean the orbital or otherwise space-based industrial centers. The ones that produce the warships and keep them supplied.

So basically, they're not infiltration specialists. Thank you for conceding my point.

Yes. They're special forces with an eye towards infiltration.

By causing massive civil unrest and destabilizing the very fabric of Earth civilization.

Which doesn't help at all when the UN still has this large and well-armed fleet and (now) a very good reason to genocide every man, woman, child, and indentured servant on Freehold.

From the POV of people who come up with such policies, a random person who just breaks a rule is just as bad as a gangsta

Sure. I'll buy that. The problem is that tracking chips in everyone lets you nail both of those groups (ie jay-walkers and genuine criminals) with similar amounts of effort.

– and beside, a fictional society doesn't have to be 100% thought-out, it just has to be 'feasible'.

True, it doesn't have to be completely thought out down to the last detail, but you most definitely have to think about the details you do include. And it's pretty clear that Williamson didn't.

Brain chips are a horrible violation of privacy, but they basically ensure that you can catch anyone who commits a crime. Rape, theft, and assault should not be anywhere near common in a society with said chips.

Some people think that police and authorities actually BENEFIT from a high crime rate so they could use it to scare the populace. I am not sure I agree, but apparently MZW does.

While this would in fact make some sense, it's pretty clear from the snippets we saw in Freehold and The Weapon that the UN people weren't very scared. They were too busy eating. Like hungry hungry hippos. Also, a government not cracking down on crime when it has the extremely easy capability to do so doesn't make much sense either. Governments tend to like order, and crime is, by its nature, disorderly.

The swords are not compulsory for everyday carry.

They carried them on a space ship boarding action. That's worse than usual, because the only melee weapon that's worth the mass on such a mission would be a bayonet. Even an axe wouldn't be helpful because there's not much to cut aboard a space vessel.

And at any rate, the machete is in itself a sword.

Yes, and it's only really useful in one specific circumstance (ie when you've got thick jungles to hack up.)

Besides, operative swords aren't mentioned to be machetes.

I take it you concede my points regarding the fail of UN militaries,

I concede that the UN has less experience with conquest than the first two books led me to believe, yes. However, I still maintain that the UN army having a policy of interventionism does not jive with incompetence on the scale we saw in The Weapon.

and regarding the Operatives not being, in fact, infiltration specialists.

Yes. Very well. My assertion there was a knee-jerk reaction to them being used to infiltrate and genocide a planet of billions.

However, that doesn't really change the fact that operative training still sucks pretty hardcore from a plausibility standpoint. If you're training special forces, you'd logically focus on skills they'd need. Namely, stealth, shooting, bomb making, etc. We got some of this with the zero-G training, but the 'you're dropped in the middle of nowhere with your comrades. There is only one bag of beef jerky between you! You must fight for it!' style bullshit is just stupid. Exposure training is one thing. The exposure training we saw in The Weapon is so over the top as to be pointless.

Also, the whole process of becoming an operative is ass backwards. The only people who stay in are the lamers who are too weak to ring the bell, while the strong guys, the ones with the willpower to ignore the DIs beating on them, are able to get out. Freehold literally weeds out the best candidates.